The Property Perspective
From hidden gems to billion-dollar deals, this is The Property Perspective - where seasoned real estate pros reveal how they spot value others miss, and industry disruptors share the unconventional strategies reshaping real estate.
The Property Perspective
The Future of Housing: Reform and Innovation Unveiled with Jason Haber
Real estate visionary Jason Haber joins us to explore the seismic shifts reshaping the industry. As the co-founder of the American Real Estate Association, Jason brings unmatched insight into the challenges and controversies surrounding the National Association of Realtors (NAR). We shine a light on how artificial intelligence is reimagining real estate practices, providing agents and investors with the tools they need to outpace the competition. Jason shares some captivating stories, including a memorable encounter with Muammar Gaddafi and his experiences in New York City politics, emphasizing the crucial role of advocacy in driving industry reform.
Visit BatchData.io to learn more about our enterprise-grade APIs and startup friendly pricing
Use code "PODCAST50" for 50% off your first month with BatchLeads
Company Links:
BatchService.com - Learn about all products
BatchLeads.io - AI-powered property search and lead generation
BatchData.io - Enterprise-grade property data APIs
BatchDialer.com - Multi-line power dialer for real estate
00:00 - Hope (Announcement)
The real estate industry is undergoing massive shifts and if you're an agent or investor, you need to stay ahead. Preston Zeller is joined by Jason Haber, co-founder of the American Real Estate Association, to break down how NAR's dominance is being challenged, why outdated MLS systems need reform and how AI is reshaping the industry. If you want to future-proof your career and understand where real estate is headed, this episode is for you. From hidden gems to billion-dollar deals, this is the Property Perspective, where seasoned real estate pros reveal how they spot, value, others miss, and industry disruptors share the unconventional strategies reshaping real estate. Now here are your hosts, hey everyone.
00:40 - Preston Zeller (Host)
My name is Preston Zeller. I'm the Chief Growth Officer at Batch Service. I'm here today with Jason Haber, who's the co-founder of the American Real Estate Association. Jason, welcome to the Property Perspective. How are you doing?
00:54 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Amazing. Thank you for having me. I'm glad to get on the podcast here.
00:58 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. And, just like you know, for some context you know we context, you know we a batch service became you know founding um kind of like you know brand partner with American real estate association and, um, I thought what a, what a great perspective to get on the show. So, I'm really excited to hear, um, not just where you're at today, but your story, Jason, because, as we were talking about before this, um, you know, very uh, everyone has a non-linear path and just all the weird twists and turns we have along the way. So, I'm excited to dig into that. But for people who don't know you you've never heard of you I'd love to hear just kind of a brief intro on yourself and, yeah, where you're at today.
01:37 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Yeah, I've been an agent for about 18 years in New York City, and one of the interesting things about this whole journey for me is that I was not a member of NAR until the last two years, because in New York City, we're members of REBNY. It's a weird quirk there's no MLS, there's something called an RLS, and so when I started getting involved honestly at NAR, I had to write the initials on my hand for early interviews, because I kept calling it the NRA. I was very green when I began on this, but I have a background in policy and politics, and that's something that I haven't really used much in my real estate business over those 18 years. The one example where I did, though in 2009, during the Great Recession. Some of you remember, if you were in real estate at the time, how difficult it was to transact. In the 2009 market.
02:39
I had only one rental listing, and in September of 2009, Muammar Gaddafi of Libya wanted to rent this townhouse that I had for rent. This is a true story. You can Google my name and Momar Gaddafi. You will see all the stories about it. Because they all they wanted to rent this house. I said no, they had just released the guy convicted of bombing Pan Am flight one of three from prison in Scotland. I said if you send him back to prison you can have the house. Um, I got some nasty comments back. Long story short, they ended up did renting property from someone else. Guess who they rented from?
03:19 - Preston Zeller (Host)
uh, trump?
03:20 - Jason Haber (Guest)
I don't know exactly, it was trump. They rented land from Donald Trump in New Jersey after I declined them. So this is a funny story. And I was involved in New York City politics, and I was a professor at John Jay College while I had my first few years of real estate. So I had this policy background, and I was working in real estate. I got licensed, also in Florida, two years ago and then really in August it was the August 31st, 2023, a year and a half ago from now when the New York times first reported on the sexual harassment issues at NAR, and it was. I actually read the article, like everyone else, and I just assumed that they would like to make a lot of changes. People would be fired and, like everyone would come out and condemn this, and what struck me was the silence of the industry, like no one spoke out. What I didn't know at the time was that NAR was is the most powerful trade group in America, the largest trade group in America, the biggest political donor in America. I didn't know any of this.
04:36
Most agents. Maybe they do, I don't know. I didn't know and I was struck by how powerful a trade group could be. They could have such a like a vice grip, basically. And so I just put out that weekend of just like I think it was on Twitter or anything. I don't think it was exiting the target. Maybe it was where I said, basically, you know, this guy should resign, we should make changes. I was the only one.
05:01
The following day I started an online petition because no one else bothered to speak up and I remember we got like eight signatures on it and I said to Danielle and our team I was like wow; we got eight signatures. This is amazing. Like we actually, like people actually cared about this. And the eight grew to like a thousand in like a few hours. And then later that day, the first resignation came at NAR, and I was basically done at that point, like I had no real connection with NAR and I was ready to just say, okay, cool, we made some changes and walk away. And then, like over the next few days, I started to get phone calls, emails and then private messages from women around the country and I actually I had to. I got all these private messaging apps that I didn't have before to communicate like signal and telegram.
05:54 - Preston Zeller (Host)
I was like do people use telegrams anymore? I feel like a spy at this point.
05:59 - Jason Haber (Guest)
I was like all right, whatever this telegram is. Anyway, the message was keep going, there's more. And I got stories shared with me from agents from West Virginia, Wisconsin, Florida, Texas, all over the country, and it seemed like there was more work to be done. And so I convened a meeting with a bunch of victims and some advocates, and I said, well, what do we need to do as an industry to change? And so we put together a four-point plan and we put it out there in the public square and, amazingly, three out of the four points ended up being adopted, including the leadership changes. Every person that we had identified that needed to go, as of this recording today, is now gone.
06:49
So we made changes there, but also we spoke about the need for cultural changes, for independent investigations. We did a lot of good and then, you know, after working on that for several months, you know, I started to think about how else, how can we further and better the industry? Because, as this was happening, the lawsuit verdict came out right. So you had these twin crises, which, of course, have nothing to do with one another like sexual harassment doesn't have anything to do with the commission lawsuit. One another, like sexual harassment, doesn't have anything to do with the commission lawsuit, but in some ways they're inextricably linked because they speak to the organization itself and what you might call institutional, institutional rot even. And so what we found was an anger in the industry for change, but no avatar for that change.
07:49
And so I got together with Mauricio Umansky in the fall of 2023. And we said you know, maybe there is a better way. You're not going to replace, take on NAR. And unfortunately, in a lot of the media coverage about us, it's like you know, whenever we make a move or make an announcement, it's always like they always sort of pit it against us, against NAR, which is sort of silly because NAR has been around for over 100 years. You know billion plus in assets. You cannot compare us to the biggest trade group in America. That would be silly. We don't make the comparison, but what we do say is that we think we can actually help make them better, but, more importantly, help make our industry better by being another voice out there. And so Mauricio and I came together. We announced about a year ago now that we were going to form this new trade group. We opened up to paid membership just six months ago now, and thousands of members in. 49 out of 50 states have joined us and there's an awareness in the industry about our work. When the settlement was announced, there was a problem with veterans because veteran buyers would have been disenfranchised under the terms of the settlement. We worked with members of Congress. Nar did too. They did great work on this, but we were also involved and we got a workaround, so veterans weren't disadvantaged.
09:24
We're now working in New York on several local policy matters. We just announced a deal with a group called NYRAC in New York City. They're an agent group. It's our first local chapter. Eventually, we'll open up chapters around the country. It'll focus on local issues, while the federal group will focus on national issues.
09:44
Membership is optional, so one of the challenges we think that NAR has is that agents have no choice, right Like, when they sign into their MLS. Whoever's responsible for it, not the point. The point is that they have to join NAR in almost every instance and we don't think that in 2025, that's a recipe for success. We think choice is a recipe for success because then you have to earn back the dues right Like. You have to earn it. You don't just get it Because the way they're structured is more agents is more revenue for the trade group.
10:23
So it's better for the trade group. But is it better for the trade group? So it's better for the trade group. But is it better for the American consumer that we're a Washington everyone's brothers, nephews, cousins, an agent? Is it better for the agents that there are so many agents? Is it better for the agents when you have, you know, so many non-professionals out there who bring down the reputation of everyone else because there are bad actors? So we think less is more. We think standards should be raised.
10:48
You know, if I wanted to sell you a single share of Apple, I would have to go through get you know testing. It would take me a long time to get my other it's my Series 7, get a broker-dealer's license, whatever it is. You know, in most states you can get licensed to sell real estate very quickly 30 days. The tests are easy. Let's face it, in most states. I'm licensed in two states, so I think I can speak to the curriculum in two states in particular. I think it should be harder to be an agent. I think what we do is really important. Why is it that we're ranked under the used car salesman in terms of public approval? Why?
11:27
Why Our public approval rates are somewhere around what Congress is there's no reason for that we do something super important in people's lives and people hold us in low regard. Part of that is because standards are low. There's too many agents NARS benefited from all these agents out there and they haven't focused on standards of excellence to push out the bad in the industry.
11:57 - Preston Zeller (Host)
In theory, that's kind of what they're meant for right, but you don't really see it, I don't think in the way that— Sure, no, I mean, obviously they have a code of ethics for right, but you don't really see it, I don't think in in the way.
12:04 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Sure, no, I mean, obviously they have a code of ethics. I'm not, but it's more about the, the. The number of agents is so high. We think it's too high. We think there should be less of them.
12:16 - Preston Zeller (Host)
We think there's less two, two million, right, something like that. No three, three, yeah, that's, that's crazy.
12:24 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Yeah, it's like 3 million agents or 5 million deals. There's just too many out there and we need to sort of like rethink the agent in American life and the value and importance that they play. And maybe some of this is distorted. Some people say it's some of the reality. Tv shows have distorted what people think about agents. I'm not sure, but I do think that there's a perception out there that doesn't match reality, and I would argue that a strong federal trade group should be changing that narrative, should be working to change that narrative, and so we hope to collaborate with NAR as we can to help change that narrative.
13:11
We think that's very important for the future of the industry and as we look to the future, you know it's going to sound weird, but there's going to be a point in time where there are going to be humanoid robots showing homes, right Like. There's going to be a point in time. You know the moment when time we're at right now it kind of reminds me of like 1995, when Netscape was like, first went public and like we sort of started with the dot-com craze and we had this really transformative technology that changed everything about how we live, work and play. I think AI is one of those moments now where we're in early days and we don't know how this will all play out. But it's going to impact our industry above and beyond having chat GPT help you write listing copy and marketing copy, and beyond having chat GPT help you write listing copy and marketing copy Like it's going to be way more central to how you do your business and like. So what are the guardrails that have to be up? What are the? What are the policies we don't want to be advocating for when it comes to AI and real estate, and like what's good for the consumer, what's good for our agents and our members? These are like the kinds of forward things that we think about a lot already and, you know, I think we'll be offering some ideas on in the coming year.
14:31
So there's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of reputation in our industry to be fixed, but we just think that there's space for other voices in the industry Because NAR has mandatory membership. It's very different from other trade associations. So, for example, if you're a doctor, 17% of all doctors are members of the American Medical Association. 15% of all lawyers are members of the Federal American Bar Association, but 99% of all, practicing agents are members of the real estate association, NAR. The only other trade group that operates this way, as far as I know, is AARP. But when you turn 50, they send you a birthday card, not a bill.
15:17
There's just no real peer to how our industry has operated and functioned and governed and I think there's a lot of innovation that could happen. I think there's a whole host of exciting ways we can evolve. I mean batch services involved with data. So you see the MLSs around the country Now. Some are fine and all good, but I got to tell you I see a lot of MLSs that look like 1998 technology, to the point where I wouldn't send it to a client. I wouldn't want my name to be associated with this kind of presentation of material, of listing material, because it's antiquated. Why are so many MLSs antiquated? They're antiquated because there's no innovation, there's no competition and that all should change. There's no reason why MLS presentation declines should look the way it does, just no reason.
16:13 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, I know one of the things and I don't know if this is still kind of a guiding principle, but I remember seeing on the site was just about some kind of better centralized national MLS, right? Can you maybe delve into any kind of other thoughts?
16:29 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Yeah, so I mean the way I look at it is and I'll take I'll go back to. I'll use a New York example. So I have an apartment on the Upper West Side and I grew up on Long Island. So Long Island's just for those who aren't familiar with the geography just east of New York City. Now if I want to transact where I grew up, they're both in New York State, but because I'm not a member of the local MLS on Long Island, I have to. I'm blocked out from transacting there. Why? My licensure comes from New York state and the state of Florida. In theory, I should be able to transact in a state where I'm licensed, but we put up what I think is a restraint of trade. We put up these walls and we say, no, you're not a member of the MLS, you can't transact here. Oh, but I'm licensed by the state. The state says I can transact, but a non-state actor is telling me that I can't. I know agents who are members of six or seven MLSs.
17:35
They pay thousands a year in fees. We're at a point in time, post-covid, where folks are more mobile Like myself, I'm constantly back and forth between New York and Florida and I think that the way we're set up is restrictive, is too restrictive on that, and that we can do better. And so I do think that you should be able to see all the data in the state where you're licensed, and if you don't know the local market or the local customs, you can always refer or team up with someone locally. But I don't believe in these artificial walls, and so we do believe in national listing service, and our trade group is not doing one, just to be clear, but there is another group working on this that we're keeping a close eye on and we talk to and, um, I do believe we'll see a lot of innovation with this idea of a national listing service in the next, in the next year yeah, I mean, that's something we this isn't really on a road map, but that's something we talked about internally at some point is like trying to become that.
18:43 - Preston Zeller (Host)
That is a you know very. It's a moonshot idea because, as you said, very established organization. I mean there's just so much fragmentation. But I definitely fully agree. I mean just the ability to break down these artificial barriers, as you put it. That's never. That's actually why we'll get agents onto batch leads, for instance, because you know we have MLS data across the country and so they'll go get it. Now you can't go put up a listing, you know, through us by any means, but if you're just like, hey, I want to prove what's in the market there, you may not see pocket listings or something. But yeah, it's just it's. It's so weird we have to like have these circumvented methods. Yeah.
19:34 - Jason Haber (Guest)
As an industry we're just set up. It's the way things have been and no one's come on to challenge it or contest the way things are. And then we came along and started asking a whole bunch of questions, and I think now the atmosphere is more ripe for change and innovation.
19:52 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Mm, hmm. Yeah, so you know I'm curious. The atmosphere is more ripe for change and innovation. Yeah, so you know I'm curious. I'd love to delve into a bit of your background, right, because this is all I think you know. Someone listening may be like how on earth, what is the roadmap to here? I mean, so you have. You have this interesting kind of policy background. Then real estate it sounds like kind of the legal policy. Realm came first Like take, take us back there.
20:18 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Yeah, no. So I've been in um working in policy and politics well before I was in real estate. Back I went in uh for. For undergrad I went to the George Washington university. I got my master's degree from the International Affairs School at Columbia. While I was at GW I worked for the special counsel of the White House. His name was Lanny Davis. One of the other interns had a thing with the president may have read about it and it was just an interesting experience to be sort of in the middle of all of that and to learn how to handle sort of a crisis in that kind of a stage.
20:56
I moved back to New York City after graduating college and got politically active in New York. I worked for an author named Gail Sheehy. I worked on several books and articles for Family Fair Magazine and I ended up working for a New York State legislator who then became the Manhattan Borough President, the Comptroller, and his name is Scott Stringer. He's actually running for mayor of New York right now and the election is in June, so we'll see what happens with New York City. Almost certainly we'll have a new mayor, given the state of what's happening with the current mayor of New York City.
21:31
With the current mayor of New York City, and so I had this sort of policy political background embedded, but I kept it separate. So even when I was in real estate 2006, 2023, it's a long time I never sort of meshed the two together. They were kind of like in separate buckets. And then that all changed when Deborah Kamen of the New York Times did this article on NAR a year and a half ago and for the first time really except for the Gaddafi experience I merged them together. And so now you know, here we are a year and a half later and I co-founded this trade group with Mauricio Umansky. We're growing this trade group enterprise and I have my brokerage business in both New York and Florida. So every day is a little different in terms of time management. Luckily, I have amazing people that I work with in both states, because my ability to show is not what it used to be, just given the time demands on building a national trade group, but that's what I signed up for.
22:43 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, that is an interesting thing when you take on something that kind of cuts to the core of you, like that you're really passionate about, it's interesting how we'll take those things on. We're kind of more, more abandoned for what it, what it might turn into, because you're just passionate about it. You're like, yeah, I see it grow into something. I'm curious, uh, did you and Mauricio, did you guys know each other long before this? Or you know what was, what was? What was that like?
23:14 - Jason Haber (Guest)
No. So he, when I, after the lawsuit verdicts came out, he was the first one to say maybe we should like start our own thing. I think he said it at a real deal event Maybe there's room for a new trade group. And I thought, hey, here's, here's someone who's actually thinking about these issues. So I reached out to him. We got together. We held a series of meetings in the fall of 2023. And it quickly became apparent that it made no sense if I was going to start a trade group on the East Coast and he was going to start one on the West Coast, it didn't make sense to be competing, so we joined forces instead nice.
23:57 - Preston Zeller (Host)
And he's uh, he started agency, right, yeah, the agency, yeah, right, yeah. Which, yeah, I know a lot of people are, you know, probably familiar with from um, you know some of the tv shows out there and whatnot. Um, I'm curious, so you have the power broker book on your shelf? Um, I've, actually I've gone through parts of that, um, but a lot of poses yeah it's a long book and it was published.
24:23 - Jason Haber (Guest)
It was the longest book they could possibly publish on the uh for one spine, so it wasn't multiple volumes um well, and it's interesting, as we're talking about this actually, because you know Robert moses is such a fascinating character.
24:37 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Obviously you know like super uh, instrumental in New York and very um questionable things right, but it it's, it's almost strikes me, as there's some like um parallels in terms of, like, some of what we've seen, the manipulation in the real estate industry and how he moved, you know kind of force things around to have his vision or whatever for New York. But I'm just curious, do you read that book or catch up on it often, or just kind of one that you've read? That's kind of interesting because you live in New York.
25:15 - Jason Haber (Guest)
No. So if you want the, if you want the whole book in one sentence, it's that this is what I tell everyone. If you want. This is the very, very short cliff note. New York needed a Robert Moses. Instead, it got the Robert Moses. That's all you need to know.
25:32
So, for those who are watching this may be interested in learning more. So I do give lectures on Robert Moses and Jane Jacobs and this idea of how we plan for cities of the future and the mistakes that were made in the post-war so they'll call it 1945, through modern times, and the mistakes that were made in New York and the lessons that are to be learned from the Robert Moses era. You can go onto YouTube, actually, and watch some of the lectures. If you have trouble sleeping at night, it may help, or maybe you'll find it really interesting. I don't know, but I find this study of Moses very important. But I find this study of Moses very important. It's a study of power and it's a study of what happens when you do allow just one person, unelected, to make decisions, have complete control and complete authority over those decisions. You look at all the things that Robert Moses built that would take someone else lifetimes.
26:46
There's no way one person could build all that in a lifetime. But then you look at the results of that building. You can just Google the population history of New York City. We have very good data that goes back 400 years. There's only one period in New York City's 400-year history, only one, where the population declines if you look over a 40-year period, and that's 1940 to 1980. That's it. So all the building that he's doing is sending people out of the city and he called them arterial roads. So what is an artery? An artery brings blood away from the heart. Really good urban planning is an artery. It's a vein. It draws people into the city and Robert Moses was doing the exact opposite. So for all that he built, the city's population went down. Wars, famines, plagues did not bring down the population of New York City, but Robert Moses did and the results were catastrophic for the city. So it's an important story, I think, for planners, for people in real estate today. The book is a lot.
27:48
It is a very long read and you can see, I see, I actually go through it a lot, I annotate it and see some of the dog-eared pages and make notes on it and stuff. But I recommend it. But if not, you can just check out my lecture. It's 45 minutes on YouTube and you'll get a good sense of it.
28:12 - Preston Zeller (Host)
No, I appreciate you sharing that Um and I'm so you know. You kind of touched on this briefly, but it's you know, it sounds like you know, after you got your master's degree, you did go into like publishing um to some degree, or you're in that realm.
28:26 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Well, I wrote. I wrote a book called the business of good, which is a book on social entrepreneurship in America, which I still, to this day, taught in several schools. When they teach courses in social entrepreneurship so often, I'll go to college campuses and speak about that as well. So that was my first book, and I'm tinkering with some other book projects now too. We'll see what anything comes of it.
28:51 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, it sounds like you're in the midst of just living what will become some kind of book. So what was the catalyst for you to get into real estate?
29:10 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Well, living on the Upper West Side at the time, which was extraordinarily expensive, wanting to start a family, I needed a job in the private sector and I was getting married at the time. And my aunt her name is Tony Haber, a top agent in New York city literally just said one day why don't you just come aboard my team and give it a shot? And I did, and here we are all these years later.
29:30 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, it's interesting how I think there's uh, I mean with anything that can happen, but definitely real estate, because it is ubiquitous, right? Um, everyone knows probably like five agents at least. Um, yeah, but it's definitely the kind of thing I mean what, what were your? Because you got into like Manhattan real estate right away, or, yeah, Manhattan, yeah, I mean. So that that's a uh, an interesting just schooling in and of itself, but what were some of the things that maybe surprised you about getting into, you know, um, maybe Manhattan real estate in particular, or just the real estate industry?
30:13 - Jason Haber (Guest)
so for that was most interesting was the history. Like I got to appreciate all the architecture, understand why certain buildings were where they are, why they aren't in other locations too, and I have this sort of historical context that I would bring to sort of urban housing that I wouldn't have in a like a suburban market, for example, that was built like post-war is. It wouldn't have that kind of 200 year plus history. So I found that, you know, to be interesting. The deal-making in real estate is not that different from governance and politicking. There's definitely horse trading. So I can understand why we have a real estate president. It's kind of interesting that it hasn't happened before in some ways. But I kind of see some of the tie-ins anyway between real estate and governance. So in that way it is interesting that President Trump's back.
31:15
And but I feel like I was surprised at when you're in Manhattan real estate, you meet an international set of people second homes, third homes, fourth homes and you do get an appreciation for the immense wealth that certain people have.
31:37
You have no idea that this person who's just maybe on the subway or walking around dressed casually, has hundreds of millions of dollars and you see this level of wealth on billionaire's row where I've sold Two years ago, I mean, I, you know, two years ago, it's well known I sold an apartment for $70 million and then I followed it up with another sale for like 40 something. Well, they were like back to back practically. You just, you know there is enormous amounts of wealth out there in the world and for a lot of folks they want to be in New York, they want to be or have to be in New York and so you meet, um, not just sort of like locals, but you meet. You meet people who are, who are like captains of industry or, you know, lead these, these interesting lives where you know, like I'll have clients, they'll say, oh, I have to leave now Because I have a lunch meeting in London, you know.
32:35
And it's like they take a plane to London; they have lunch, and they have an important lunch meeting in London. I'm like, oh, I got like lunch with like a friend of mine.
32:45 - Preston Zeller (Host)
I got to go take the sub seven stops.
32:49 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Right, right, like that's how people live. Yeah, so it's interesting. The the, the cohort of people you meet in New York, I think is very interesting.
33:03 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, you know. So I've been to Manhattan a handful of times and every time I go there I'm a West Coast kid, you know, I grew up by the beach, all that kind of stuff. Every time you're it is kind of mind boggling. Um, just the layout of Manhattan, obviously, the, the height of the buildings, it's just such a different vibe than anywhere else. Um, and I've been to like really big cities in Europe and other big cities here. Um, I mean, you know LA is not even comparable because it's so sprawled, right, um, so I, you know, I think people, I always. You know my wife, I'm like we got to go to New York city someday just so you can experience it. Um, she thinks she'll probably have a panic attack the second she gets in there, but, um, but no, um, I, it's a such a fascinating place.
33:57
But I think I would love for you to, if you can. You know the high end market, for you know retail, you know sales. If you could walk us through like, what is that like for you? Because so much of the people who are probably going to listen to this they're doing like some of them have wholesaled or flipped. You know pretty large homes, but you know $10 million is a big home. But then you get into these like crazy penthouses in New York that don't really exist many places in the US, right, I don't even know if they do. Maybe Miami, you know if that, even know, if they do, maybe Miami, I, you know if that. So I I'd love to hear just some kind of what insights from that, that experience of selling a property that expensive.
34:49 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Yeah, and they definitely are in Miami. Now, these days I can tell you the way of Miami and in Palm beach. Uh, actually, the Palm beach market is is, I think, in some ways is more unbelievable than what's happened in Miami. I think that in New York City there's a trade-off for space, right? So even if you're spending $10 million this is going to sound crazy to some people you could spend $10 million and have an apartment that's 2,500 feet, right? Like, what do you get for that? People ask. You know, obviously you're living above the city. You have certain views, a certain lifestyle in the building, certain security and privacy and amenities that you can't get, you know, anywhere else. It's a market, right? Like if no one was interested in that market, people would not be paying those prices. But they do because of the location, because the city that they're in and for it meets their needs and lifestyle.
35:46
Not everyone is a full-time resident. Some people, a lot of people now these days, live there under half the year for tax reasons, or they're for a quarter of the year, but they want, they put money in real estate. What's interesting is the market. It's had like a lot of movement over the last 10 years, but generally it's flat and it's sort of due for the next big run. We're sort of all waiting and we're seeing some early signs that we may be seeing that, but it's definitely been a while since it's run up in price. The old adage was a long-term real estate bet in Manhattan is as safe as they come. The last decade part of it was because of the pandemic and some other issues that came after the pandemic and sort of challenged that thesis. But it's a completely unique market. Real estate agents don't write contracts in New York City, Only attorneys do that. You know, we just submit Florida is a similar way.
36:44 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Right Attorneys Florida, you write contracts. Okay.
36:48 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Okay, but not in New York City. The agents don't write the contracts in New York City. You know we have co-op boards in New York City which, if you live outside of New York City co-ops are probably a small part of your market. They're a huge part of the market in Manhattan. It's like you're joining a club instead of a building and the club can reject you. So you do all the work right, like. You reach a deal, you sign a contract, you submit a bunch of paperwork could be this thick and they say no thank you and that's it, the deal's over.
37:23 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Wait, they don't want the resident. Yeah, yeah, so in a co-op you're not buying real property.
37:31 - Jason Haber (Guest)
You're buying shares of a corporation and the corporation has a board of directors and that board can reject the buyer. They don't. If they don't for any reason, they say, oh, they don't give to the right philanthropy, or oh, they don't have enough post-closing liquidity, or oh, this or that, and they reject them. And they don't have to give a reason why they reject them.
37:53 - Preston Zeller (Host)
How often does that happen? Do you hear you? Some buildings are notoriously difficult and underlying of that is some kind of club factor to it. I'm sure. Right, I mean, you're curating the right residents so every board.
38:12 - Jason Haber (Guest)
some will look more at the financials and some of the ultra elite ones, particularly on the Upper East Side, may have other requirements and they'll just think they're not a right fit for the building and say thank you, but no thank you.
38:27 - Preston Zeller (Host)
So I'm curious are there certain buildings where it's like if you're a certain background or whatever, you go to that building?
38:37 - Jason Haber (Guest)
background or whatever you go to that building discrimination is would be illegal. But they can reject you for any reason because they're governed under corporation law. So you know, they, they don't have to say why they reject. But some buildings, you know, only allow 50 financing, some allow no financing, they're all.
38:57 - Preston Zeller (Host)
I mean these are multi tens of millions of dollars properties in there, Kind of in most cases yeah.
39:03 - Jason Haber (Guest)
In most cases, some, not all. There are some buildings that, just you know, want to feel like they're like a park Avenue co-op and right off park, and so they make they make very strict requirements. So it's a very different world.
39:18 - Preston Zeller (Host)
How old are these co-ops?
39:21 - Jason Haber (Guest)
So most co-ops were created post-war, so post-World War II, so the 1950s through the 80s. Anything that's come after that has been condo. So condo ownership apples to apples, apples to oranges. You get more per foot for condo than co-op. Condo ownership is where you own the walls, the floors, the real property, as opposed to co-ops where you own the shares of the corporation yeah, that's I mean maybe for.
39:50 - Preston Zeller (Host)
So myself included, I remember co-op kind of being mentioned in like real estate courses, but it's not something you come across much here like could you kind of break that down difference between, I mean, other than what you just said, like what are the advantages, disadvantages? I mean you're not owning real property in a co-op, but how do you benefit from that? I guess?
40:09 - Jason Haber (Guest)
yeah, I mean co-ops are cheaper. The board has very much uh control over the building. Um, condos allow you more flexibility in terms of subleasing. Co-ops can say you can't rent out or you can, but twice in every five years. They can say like no pets. You know condos and more flexible ownership. You can buy an LLC and a trust. Co-ops tend to not, although some co-ops are allowing them. So you know it's a huge part of the market in New York, particularly in Manhattan. So we work with co-ops all the time. Actually, just last night we just submitted a co-op board package for a deal we did on 61st Street. You know the buyer could probably buy like four of these apartments and so you think. But we still have to be very careful with the application to make sure the board understands their financials, you know, and they have to send over you know everything tax returns, every financial statement, the most recent balances on all accounts, reference letters, personal reference, business reference, personal. Yeah, we've had situations where we've had pets get interviewed.
41:20 - Preston Zeller (Host)
What does that even mean?
41:22 - Jason Haber (Guest)
They want to know if the dog's going to bark, basically yeah yeah, yeah, they're doing like a behavioral thing. Yeah, we drug the dog usually make the dog chill out.
41:36 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, that's, that's uh fascinating. Um, what, I guess what? What's the most obscure thing you get asked on one of these applications?
41:47 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Well, the applications themselves are pretty pro forma, um it may be in the interview where they can ask something you know, they, they it is. It is a pretty comprehensive scoping, though. I mean they want to know the kind of person you are and if you'll be a good fit in the building.
42:05 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, I didn't. Uh, I just had another, another thought that was coming to mind while you're, while you were saying that. But, um, you know, I I'm really curious, and I'm sure people listening are like, how did you get into that? Um echelon of real estate sales? Right, cause I think it's that's a obviously a small pool, right, there's only so many of those properties that get sold.
42:29 - Jason Haber (Guest)
No, I mean co-ops are very popular. I mean you know their co-ops are, you know, four or $500,000 smaller apartments to one, two, three million. I mean they run up to 20, 40, 50 million, whatever, but they're a big part of the market.
42:42 - Preston Zeller (Host)
If you're a New York City agent, you have to understand co-ops and you have to deal with the co-op board package and approval process you could be facing a similar level of scrutiny for a, you know, a million dollar, a quarter million, three quarter million-dollar property is a $20 million property. Yeah, interesting, okay. So I thought you were just kind of going after like the super high.
43:08 - Jason Haber (Guest)
No, I mean all of them, with the application we just put in for like for two of around two one or so We've had. We had one earlier this year for like $950,000. And you know it's the same approach, you know, showing their financial wherewithal and making sure the co-op's comfortable with the buyer, mm-hmm.
43:32 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Back to one of my earlier questions. Real quick, like the you know $70 million, $40 million property, I mean that's, I imagine, like heavily referral based, how that happens, or Uh, not necessarily.
43:46 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Um, that was, that was the relationship building those, both of those. So I didn't have referrals on either, but I'm sure that there are.
43:54 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, cause I mean I, you know, I've heard of so many people, especially you know, out in SoCal or like I'm only going to sell in you know Bel Air or something, and you know good for that, they can do it. Yeah, um, but I can be tough, tough to get a new for sure. Um, cool. Well, um, yeah, anything else for, like American Real Estate Association.
44:21 - Jason Haber (Guest)
No, I just tell your listeners and viewers just you know, if they want to check us out American Riaorg we have a new website coming in a few weeks. We'll have some announcements coming up in the spring, which I'm excited about, and you know, check us out online or you can check me out on Instagram at Jason Haber or at American Agents and join our conversation.
44:44 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Cool. Well, I really appreciate you coming on, Jason.
44:47 - Jason Haber (Guest)
Of course. Thank you for having me.
44:49 - Preston Zeller (Host)
Yeah.
44:50 - Hope (Announcement)
Thanks for listening to today's podcast. Please make sure to subscribe on your favorite service to get notified every time a new episode is released.
